Hydrogen Buses in Wistler BC Scrapped... "Not Sustainable"... Surprise Surprise...

"Manwich - now Keto-Friendly" (manwich) 12/12/2013 at 09:53 • Filed to: Hydrogen

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I had a little chuckle this morning when I read this:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-c…

No kidding these things aren't sustainable. Yeah... what comes out of the tailpipe of the buses is "green", but what about what comes out of the exhaust pipe for the machinery that produces and compresses the hydrogen?

Nah... Hydrogen is anything but green or sustainable in the long run.

Hydrogen has no future!!!

thebigbossyboss > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 12/12/2013 at 09:54

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Fun fact: Whistler is named after whistle pigs.

Casper > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 12/12/2013 at 10:19

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Actually by comparison hydrogen is very green... if you have the means to produce it efficiently. For instance, Greenland and Iceland have been making great strides to produce it very efficiently due to their abundance of available clean energy. Several regions of the US have started as well.

The problem wasn't the chemical, the problem was the people. The same is true with most forms of energy production.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Casper 12/12/2013 at 10:25

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Producing it efficiently basically means producing electricity efficiently ... and it's always more efficient to just store the electricity in a battery pack (provided it's used within a few days) rather than use that electricity to make hydrogen and use more electricity to compress and store hydrogen.

And Iceland has an abundance of Geothermal energy. It would be even more efficient if they ditched the hydrogen and just used straight electricity.

Fewer conversion and storage losses.

Casper > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 12/12/2013 at 10:40

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Electricity has to be stored in a battery, hydrogen is the battery. You are basing your efficiency measurement on getting from x to battery and I am referencing the efficiency of the total energy production model. Producing hydrogen requires more energy input, but it is it's own storage medium. Further, in the places I used as examples, they are increasing overall system efficiency by using excess energy for the hydrogen production. Once the energy is stored as hydrogen, it's 100% efficient, it never degrades and requires very ecologically friendly and efficient storage systems. Electricity requires batteries that use rare materials, toxic chemicals, and have very short storage lives.

Generally the most efficient production of hydrogen is using it as a capture method of excess energy production of wind farms, hydro dams, geothermal systems, etc. You are going from a 100% loss to a retention that is relatively cheap and stable in comparison to batteries. The only way you could store electricity more efficiently would be to do so in a kinetic storage system, but they scale poorly.

Storing and transporting energy as electricity is the least efficient method of transport and storage.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Casper 12/12/2013 at 10:58

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Hydrogen is not a battery.

It is a gas that is difficult to store.

Your entire reasoning is based on a false premise.

Casper > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 12/12/2013 at 11:03

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It isn't literally an electrical storage device, but our use is such as an energy storage medium. We convert electricity to hydrogen just as we convert electricity for storage in any other chemical or kinetic storage solution. The difference is that hydrogen is stable.

bat·ter·y

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Casper 12/12/2013 at 11:45

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Hydrogen is anything but stable. The fact that it is very UNstable is what makes it difficult to store.

And no... with hydrogen, you are not converting chemical energy. Hydrogen is a gas.

What you're saying is like saying a tank of propane, CNG, gasoline or diesel constitutes a "battery".

It isn't.

Casper > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 12/12/2013 at 12:06

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It is if you choose to convert it back to electrical energy via a fuel cell or the like. It's an energy storage medium, the point being that it does not require additional conversion to store. Electricity requires that you convert it to something for chemical or kinetic storage, once converted, most forms of storage will decay faster than hydrogen storage. For instance when you convert electricity into stored energy in a LiCoO2 (like an electric car for instance) there is an efficiency loss and it becomes only as stable as the elements of the storage device. It is not as stable as a hydrogen storage simply because it's not being stored in a pure form and rely on a reactive element that is decaying over time as the cathode side. All of this depends on the method of conversion to electricity from whatever battery/energy storage medium. For instance, the energy in Hydrogen could be converted directly to work via combustion, which by passes a whole phase of energy production electricity would need in the production of work.

Hydrogen should not theoretically decay in energy potential over time without something being flawed in the storage. It's a pure element. Also, stop saying it's a gas, I tried to cut you some slack because I assumed you responded before thinking it through, but you keep repeating it. Hydrogen is an element that can be stored both as a liquid or gas, in it's pure form it depends on the temperature. Liquid hydrogen is the most common application in fuel form for rockets and fuel cells. Just because at room temperature it's a gas does not mean it applies in any way to this discussion.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Casper 12/12/2013 at 12:35

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"the charge applied is not as stable as hydrogen storage"

What a bunch of "comparing apples to oranges" bullshit. I strongly suspect you are trolling. But I'll humour you one last time...

If a tank of hydrogen is true energy/electricity storage medium, then no conversion would be required to draw the energy/electricity out of it.

And there is absolutely NO "charge" you would get out of a tank of hydrogen. The electricity wouldn't happen until the hydrogen hit the fuel cell... unless the hydrogen is being used like gasoline and it's inherent instability is taken advantage of in an internal combustion engine.

Again... your whole reasoning is based on a false premise and ridiculous analogies.

Just because something contains energy does not make it a the same as a battery. The banana I'm gonna eat for lunch also has energy in it too! You gonna call that a battery as well?

I've been cutting YOU a lot of slack. Many would argue that hydrogen isn't even a true fuel.

A tank of hydrogen does not in any way, shape or form qualify as a storage of energy the way a battery is. A tank of hydrogen, either in liquid or gas for, never has and never will qualify as a battery.

And I'm going to continue to say hydrogen is a gas because that's what it normally is here on Earth... unless you spend a ton of energy on refrigerating it down to a temperature where it becomes a liquid. But that's not its NORMAL state here on Earth.

BTW... by liquifying hydrogen, you make hydrogen go from being almost competitive with a conventional gasoline car to being completely uncompetitive .... when you look at the complete end to end picture which includes the cost of the "fuel", the cost of refrigeration, as well as the cost of building out the single-purpose inflexible infrastructure that would be needed.

And you're only gonna fool the dumbest politician and Rick Wagoner by twisting around the meaning of the word 'cell'. You can act all you want like it's the same thing as a battery. But you're not fooling anyone with least a little technical knowledge and common sense.

But hey... why don't you try to convince the people in BC with your "logic" and get them to put those hydrogen buses back on the road... LOL

Casper > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 12/12/2013 at 13:02

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So no conversion happens in a LiOn battery?